DRIVER EXAMINATION REPORT VIOLATION QUESTION

Mar 28, 2012 at 08:23 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Just looking for a little advice from anybody that has experienced a similar situation with themselves or one of their drivers. I had a driver recently get pulled over by a Highway Patrol Trooper. My driver's version of the story is that the officer approached the truck and told him he "thought" he was traveling 6-10 mph over the speed limit. The Trooper informed him that he wasn't going to give him a ticket or a warning but that he was going to perform an inspection on him. The trooper proceeded with a level III driver only inspection and according to the report did not find any additional violations. The only thing that he did find my driver in violation of was traveling 6-10 mph over the speed limit. However he did not give my driver a ticket or warning nor was there a citation number included in the report. Based on my driver's account of the situation (assuming he was telling me the truth) and the examination report I felt like there wasn't really any proof that a speeding violation actually occured. There was no citation or warning that accompanied the report (which I would think you would need as proof that a speeding violation actually occurred) and according to my driver he wasn't informed that he was observed on radar or clocked going over the speed limit. I respectfully submitted a DataQs challenge to the responsible agency explaining my view on the situation (similar to what I mentioned above) thinking that I probably had a good chance of getting the violation removed. However this is how things turned out: First I was told that if I had evidence that the violation did not occur I should submit it to the system for review. I'm not sure what evidence a person could have that proves they weren't speeding, but all I could do is reiterate my driver's side of the story and my knowledge of the situation. I was also informed that it is at the troopers discretion whether or not to issue a citation or warning in that situation and as a result it may or may not be associated with the report. In my response to the agency, I thanked them for their discretion not to issue my driver a citation, but I also reiterated that without a citation or warning I didn't see how there was any actual proof that a violation of that type acutally occured and that if they had some sort of record or recording from a radar gun I'd be glad to accept the violation and move on, because as it stood it just seemed like the violation was just based on the trooper's word or thought that my driver was speeding. In the final response from the agency they informed me that the Trooper did in fact stop my driver after clocking him on a Radar gun going 6 mph over the speed limit and after the examination was completed he let my driver go without a citation. My dillema and question is do you think that I should try and fight this further (is there anything I can do) or should I just be glad that my driver did not get a ticket? I don't want to force the issue too much but it just doesn't seem that there enough actual evidence that a speeding violation occured. The other thing that happened with this report, which isn't really related to the violation, is that somehow a lot of the information entered on the report was wrong. The carrier name was wrong (believe the shipper's name was put in there), which of course didn't match my DOT number, and the shipper's information was wrong. In one of the responses from the agency, I was asked to expain why this was. To me I didn't think that was my problem, isn't the trooper responsible for filling out the report correctly? Or is it possible my driver did something wrong here?

Mar 28, 2012 at 08:23 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Just looking for a little advice from anybody that has experienced a similar situation with themselves or one of their drivers.

I had a driver recently get pulled over by a Highway Patrol Trooper. My driver's version of the story is that the officer approached the truck and told him he "thought" he was traveling 6-10 mph over the speed limit. The Trooper informed him that he wasn't going to give him a ticket or a warning but that he was going to perform an inspection on him. The trooper proceeded with a level III driver only inspection and according to the report did not find any additional violations. The only thing that he did find my driver in violation of was traveling 6-10 mph over the speed limit. However he did not give my driver a ticket or warning nor was there a citation number included in the report.

Based on my driver's account of the situation (assuming he was telling me the truth) and the examination report I felt like there wasn't really any proof that a speeding violation actually occured. There was no citation or warning that accompanied the report (which I would think you would need as proof that a speeding violation actually occurred) and according to my driver he wasn't informed that he was observed on radar or clocked going over the speed limit.

I respectfully submitted a DataQs challenge to the responsible agency explaining my view on the situation (similar to what I mentioned above) thinking that I probably had a good chance of getting the violation removed. However this is how things turned out: First I was told that if I had evidence that the violation did not occur I should submit it to the system for review. I'm not sure what evidence a person could have that proves they weren't speeding, but all I could do is reiterate my driver's side of the story and my knowledge of the situation. I was also informed that it is at the troopers discretion whether or not to issue a citation or warning in that situation and as a result it may or may not be associated with the report. In my response to the agency, I thanked them for their discretion not to issue my driver a citation, but I also reiterated that without a citation or warning I didn't see how there was any actual proof that a violation of that type acutally occured and that if they had some sort of record or recording from a radar gun I'd be glad to accept the violation and move on, because as it stood it just seemed like the violation was just based on the trooper's word or thought that my driver was speeding. In the final response from the agency they informed me that the Trooper did in fact stop my driver after clocking him on a Radar gun going 6 mph over the speed limit and after the examination was completed he let my driver go without a citation.

My dillema and question is do you think that I should try and fight this further (is there anything I can do) or should I just be glad that my driver did not get a ticket? I don't want to force the issue too much but it just doesn't seem that there enough actual evidence that a speeding violation occured.

The other thing that happened with this report, which isn't really related to the violation, is that somehow a lot of the information entered on the report was wrong. The carrier name was wrong (believe the shipper's name was put in there), which of course didn't match my DOT number, and the shipper's information was wrong. In one of the responses from the agency, I was asked to expain why this was. To me I didn't think that was my problem, isn't the trooper responsible for filling out the report correctly? Or is it possible my driver did something wrong here?

Replied on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I have way to much experience with this. I have tried to fight this for some of my drivers. I have even hired a safety consultant to help write appeals. In the end there isn't anything you can do and if the Vehicle examination starts with speed your done. I have had virtualy no luck with DATA Q and feel that is a joke. That officer is now judge and jury and we are getting stopped for 5 MPH or less. I even collected data from different facilities that state that the accuaracy of a speedometer can be off 6-8% coupled with differences in tire sizes how ia driver supposed to responsible? If the truck speedometer is off 2-3 mph now you are really being written for 2 or 3 over. that is crap. If your driver would have received a citation he would have at least had the ability to go before a judge and plead his case, but the examination report would still be there. If you receive a violation and the judge dismisses it then you a chance of getting it removed. The new CSA system is horrible. I think it is more survivable if you have one truck or more than 15, but we are now in a position that we have to terminate good people if they get a CSA violation. Today we are faced with a complete double standard between an ordinary citzen trying to make a living and an officer on patrol. How many hours do some of these officers work? I know that they are allowed more than me, but they can drive how fast and fire a weapon? I can't idle for more than 5 minutes and they can idle their cars for a whole shift? At what point to we say enough? Art Pfluger

Replied on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

I have way to much experience with this. I have tried to fight this for some of my drivers. I have even hired a safety consultant to help write appeals. In the end there isn't anything you can do and if the Vehicle examination starts with speed your done. I have had virtualy no luck with DATA Q and feel that is a joke. That officer is now judge and jury and we are getting stopped for 5 MPH or less. I even collected data from different facilities that state that the accuaracy of a speedometer can be off 6-8% coupled with differences in tire sizes how ia driver supposed to responsible? If the truck speedometer is off 2-3 mph now you are really being written for 2 or 3 over. that is crap. If your driver would have received a citation he would have at least had the ability to go before a judge and plead his case, but the examination report would still be there. If you receive a violation and the judge dismisses it then you a chance of getting it removed. The new CSA system is horrible. I think it is more survivable if you have one truck or more than 15, but we are now in a position that we have to terminate good people if they get a CSA violation.
Today we are faced with a complete double standard between an ordinary citzen trying to make a living and an officer on patrol. How many hours do some of these officers work? I know that they are allowed more than me, but they can drive how fast and fire a weapon? I can't idle for more than 5 minutes and they can idle their cars for a whole shift?
At what point to we say enough?

Art Pfluger

Replied on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:43 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I hear you guys loud and clear for it happened to me last year. And Art I totally agree with you on what they the officers can do and what we cant like back to back hours and another thing that bothers the heck out of me is what they call themselves "LAW ENFORCEMENT" REALLY ????? In a free counrty???? Used to be that they were peace officers and sherriffs or marshalls

Replied on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:43 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

I hear you guys loud and clear for it happened to me last year. And Art I totally agree with you on what they the officers can do and what we cant like back to back hours and another thing that bothers the heck out of me is what they call themselves "LAW ENFORCEMENT" REALLY ????? In a free counrty???? Used to be that they were peace officers and sherriffs or marshalls

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 06:37 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. if u belong to oodia, contact them or even if u dont. they are an excellent trucker association. that really does help owner/operaters. they will give u advice ( good advice ) on options for u. dont hurt to try. here is there 800 number 1-800-444-5791 there is another number on my membership card for things just what u are talking about, its 1-888-217-5902 try them , cant hurt...best of luck. keep us posted on what happens.. joe

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 06:37 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

if u belong to oodia, contact them or even if u dont. they are an excellent trucker association. that really does help owner/operaters. they will give u advice ( good advice ) on options for u. dont hurt to try. here is there 800 number 1-800-444-5791 there is another number on my membership card for things just what u are talking about, its 1-888-217-5902 try them , cant hurt...best of luck. keep us posted on what happens.. joe

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 09:34 AM CST + 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Quote: "I hear you guys loud and clear for it happened to me last year. And Art I totally agree with you on what they the officers can do and what we cant like back to back hours and another thing that bothers the heck out of me is what they call themselves "LAW ENFORCEMENT" REALLY ????? In a free counrty???? Used to be that they were peace officers and sherriffs or marshalls" You guys are a little behind the times here..it used to be peace officers...then law enforcement officers...now the proper name for these guys is Paramilitary officer..starting to sound like a police state doesn't it"..They can't give you a ticket..because it would be laughed out of court..but they can destroy a good company with the CSA points..We have to get these killer truck drivers off the roadways of the fine motoring public..that way they will be safer...But these idiots can't figure the WE are the ones that bring food and supplies to them...

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 09:34 AM CST

+ 1

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Quote: "I hear you guys loud and clear for it happened to me last year. And Art I totally agree with you on what they the officers can do and what we cant like back to back hours and another thing that bothers the heck out of me is what they call themselves "LAW ENFORCEMENT" REALLY ????? In a free counrty???? Used to be that they were peace officers and sherriffs or marshalls"

You guys are a little behind the times here..it used to be peace officers...then law enforcement officers...now the proper name for these guys is Paramilitary officer..starting to sound like a police state doesn't it"..They can't give you a ticket..because it would be laughed out of court..but they can destroy a good company with the CSA points..We have to get these killer truck drivers off the roadways of the fine motoring public..that way they will be safer...But these idiots can't figure the WE are the ones that bring food and supplies to them...

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:22 AM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. Thanks guys for your thoughts and advice. I will contact OOIDA to see what they think, that had slipped my mind. Just contacted my state's Motor Carrier Association and they told me there's not much else I can do other than request that they knock it down to a 1-5 mph over the speed limit violation. They said the state that we were pulled over in (Colorado) is one of several "Probable Cause" states where in order to pull you over, the officer needs "probable cause" to do so. They said they have seen this quite a bit before, if they think you are speeding, that qualifies as "probable cause" and even if you pass the inspection they have to put something down that justifies why they pulled you over and performed an inspection. In my home state (Kansas) they don't need probable cause to pull you over, which is a scary thought as well, but at least if you run a tight ship you won't get any violations out of the inspection.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:22 AM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

Thanks guys for your thoughts and advice. I will contact OOIDA to see what they think, that had slipped my mind. Just contacted my state's Motor Carrier Association and they told me there's not much else I can do other than request that they knock it down to a 1-5 mph over the speed limit violation. They said the state that we were pulled over in (Colorado) is one of several "Probable Cause" states where in order to pull you over, the officer needs "probable cause" to do so. They said they have seen this quite a bit before, if they think you are speeding, that qualifies as "probable cause" and even if you pass the inspection they have to put something down that justifies why they pulled you over and performed an inspection.

In my home state (Kansas) they don't need probable cause to pull you over, which is a scary thought as well, but at least if you run a tight ship you won't get any violations out of the inspection.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 03:02 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. In conversation with a local PUCO officer (they audit for FMCSA), his advice was do not speed. If you are 1 mph over the limit, that gives the officers reason to pull you over to do inspections. It's not the speed; it's the income from the violations. Depending on the situation, not only are you assessed points on your CSA report, but your company will also be subject to civil penalties (read: Money). One of our fellas was pulled over for not having working lights (his pigtail wiggled out) and given four OOS violations. It took him all of 7 seconds to plug it back in, but the officer gave him the ticket anyway. So for two years, we battled the CSA score on our equipment, and shortly after it happened, we were hit for $140 in civil penalties for the OOS. I appealed it to no avail. Basically, I was asked if his lights were working at the time the officer pulled him over. (No, pigtail came loose.) At that time, it becomes an OOS violation, so I was encouraged to shut up and pay the fine. If you were given no citation and no warning, there should have been nothing on DataQ to challenge. Just let your drivers know don't speed. Set the cruise at the limit and go with it. Otherwise, CSA will kill you, and it's difficult enough to keep up with fuel, let alone owing the state for penalties. That will shut you down quicker than the cost of fuel, greedy brokers and cheap shippers.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 03:02 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

In conversation with a local PUCO officer (they audit for FMCSA), his advice was do not speed. If you are 1 mph over the limit, that gives the officers reason to pull you over to do inspections. It's not the speed; it's the income from the violations. Depending on the situation, not only are you assessed points on your CSA report, but your company will also be subject to civil penalties (read: Money). One of our fellas was pulled over for not having working lights (his pigtail wiggled out) and given four OOS violations. It took him all of 7 seconds to plug it back in, but the officer gave him the ticket anyway. So for two years, we battled the CSA score on our equipment, and shortly after it happened, we were hit for $140 in civil penalties for the OOS. I appealed it to no avail. Basically, I was asked if his lights were working at the time the officer pulled him over. (No, pigtail came loose.) At that time, it becomes an OOS violation, so I was encouraged to shut up and pay the fine.

If you were given no citation and no warning, there should have been nothing on DataQ to challenge. Just let your drivers know don't speed. Set the cruise at the limit and go with it. Otherwise, CSA will kill you, and it's difficult enough to keep up with fuel, let alone owing the state for penalties. That will shut you down quicker than the cost of fuel, greedy brokers and cheap shippers.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 04:54 PM CST
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. So let me get this straight. The person with every reason in the world to lie is tell the truth and the person that has video and telemetry tied to pulling a driver over that is reviewed is lying? You do understand that the LEO has every right to pull a commercial vehicle over and perform a random inspection. Why would he need to make up the speeding? And think about it. If his purpose was to yank Johnny Big Rig Super Truckers chain to get his rocks off why would he have not performed a level 2? Much better chance of finding something. Usually the simple explanation is the correct one. Your driver was speeding, got caught and LEO gave him a break by only writing a warning and not a ticket.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 04:54 PM CST

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

So let me get this straight. The person with every reason in the world to lie is tell the truth and the person that has video and telemetry tied to pulling a driver over that is reviewed is lying?

You do understand that the LEO has every right to pull a commercial vehicle over and perform a random inspection. Why would he need to make up the speeding? And think about it. If his purpose was to yank Johnny Big Rig Super Truckers chain to get his rocks off why would he have not performed a level 2? Much better chance of finding something.

Usually the simple explanation is the correct one. Your driver was speeding, got caught and LEO gave him a break by only writing a warning and not a ticket.

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 05:50 PM CST + 1 - 1
Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.	Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member. I guess for starters a "WARNING" is not without a penalty in our socialist world today. There are the CSA points to deal with. For my drivers, if they get stopped for speeding their job is probably gone. At the same time in our terrain the "LEO" used to not give a truck a hard time on our steep long down grades. However if I have a driver get a "WARNING" for 5 or less, I don't condone it, but it is crap ( In my opinion) as there are to many variables for an officer to hold a person to this standard. In a conversation with multiple ex officers they explained to me that they agreed that they never had any problem filling their quota with tickets in excess of 8mph. You want to make the driver responsible for the accuracy of an instrument that he has no control over. I have contacted speedometer manufacturers and repair shops that seem to agree that there will be discrepancy. The driver may misread by a tiny bit, tire sizing differences, etc. The problem is that you are now taking a human being that left the house to make enough to pay his bills and want to crucify not only him but the company he works for. His crime is wanting to earn a living? I grant you that there has to be limits, but the new system sucks and takes all humanity out of the job. A driver forgets a line in a book and he gets a violation? What happened to REASON, where in the past "LEO" might use a god given gift of "Common Sense" and look at a logbook and see that the driver is in the limits and just made an honest mistake? What about traveling on an Interstate and getting a flat tire that you are unaware of and get an OOS ? We went from, for the most part, resonable humans, that are officers that could use discretion to now everytime you are stopped you are now going to get some type of penalty. And oh wait, does that Officer make mistakes? Does that "LEO" get held to the same standards of excellence? NO!! We wonder why we can't find good drivers? Who wants to put up with this garbage? Sorry for the rant, but what happened to reason? The Media speaks of not wanting to offend different cultural communites as they want cooperation. My respect for the current Officers isn't what is was. Art Pfluger

Replied on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 05:50 PM CST

+ 1 - 1

Posted by a private BulkLoads.com member.

I guess for starters a "WARNING" is not without a penalty in our socialist world today. There are the CSA points to deal with. For my drivers, if they get stopped for speeding their job is probably gone. At the same time in our terrain the "LEO" used to not give a truck a hard time on our steep long down grades. However if I have a driver get a "WARNING" for 5 or less, I don't condone it, but it is crap ( In my opinion) as there are to many variables for an officer to hold a person to this standard. In a conversation with multiple ex officers they explained to me that they agreed that they never had any problem filling their quota with tickets in excess of 8mph. You want to make the driver responsible for the accuracy of an instrument that he has no control over. I have contacted speedometer manufacturers and repair shops that seem to agree that there will be discrepancy. The driver may misread by a tiny bit, tire sizing differences, etc. The problem is that you are now taking a human being that left the house to make enough to pay his bills and want to crucify not only him but the company he works for. His crime is wanting to earn a living? I grant you that there has to be limits, but the new system sucks and takes all humanity out of the job. A driver forgets a line in a book and he gets a violation? What happened to REASON, where in the past "LEO" might use a god given gift of "Common Sense" and look at a logbook and see that the driver is in the limits and just made an honest mistake? What about traveling on an Interstate and getting a flat tire that you are unaware of and get an OOS ? We went from, for the most part, resonable humans, that are officers that could use discretion to now everytime you are stopped you are now going to get some type of penalty. And oh wait, does that Officer make mistakes? Does that "LEO" get held to the same standards of excellence? NO!! We wonder why we can't find good drivers? Who wants to put up with this garbage?

Sorry for the rant, but what happened to reason? The Media speaks of not wanting to offend different cultural communites as they want cooperation. My respect for the current Officers isn't what is was.

Art Pfluger